| Christianity For Babies |
| Tuesday, 12 June 2007 | |
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"Feed me". "I come here to be fed". "I'm leaving because I'm not being fed". Christians who make statements like this normally do so on a full stomach. The type of food they're looking for isn't expected to be served with a spoon, or even a fork. Rather those who want to be "fed" typically expect a meaty sermon dished up while they are sitting passively. Now, I suppose this type of behavior is reasonable for those who have recently become Christians. After all, their developmental parallel--babies--also need to be taught how to feed themselves. However, there is an pandemic of Christians who are 5, 10, 20, even 30 or older who are demanding that they are "fed". I have three questions for you about this phenomenon.
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1 - All the time. Though sometimes it is simply a way of evaluating the quality of the content. But sure, feed me feed waaaaaahh language is highly prevalent.
2 - It's a language game. I seem to meet many Christians who find the idea of feeding yourself, or to some extent being educationally self-sufficient as haughty and maybe even Godless. 3 - How about Christians who feed themselves. I've always read Paul's exhortation to move from milk to solid food as a call to cook your own meals! 1 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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1. Hmmm ... I used to hear it all the time. But I don't so much anymore, now that I'm not hanging out in an institutional church context. I don't have that much contact with IC X-tians anymore.
2. I think they've been taught that they are not capable of feeding themselves; that it's somehow dangerous. Only certain people (with degrees and special wonder twin powers) are capable feeding them. I think this is very convenient for both the feeders and the feedees. The feeders get to maintain their paychecks and feedees get to sit back, relax and depend on the special wonder twin powers for their food. 3. Break the cycle. Empower the pew sitters. It's going to feel very threatening to many pastors to allow that knowledge/information out to the general population. To remove their cloak of mystery. But in order for their people to properly mature, they really need to do that. But that's just my $.02 ... and what do I know.  2 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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First off John... Happy belated b~day...
This is one of my pet peeves..... not your birthday... but the topic... I used to hear this so much started telling people that if they still need to be fed, who still changes their diapers... I know that is not nice... but I had enough. And sometimes I am just not nice!  I will add I usually knew the person pretty well to be able to be that rough... yet the point I would go on to make is if one is not "getting fed" then they are not actively learning. I have read the bible for a few years now and still notice a few things each time I read a book... It takes a bit, but somehow I learn! So, to answer your questions. 1. Not as much anymore as people began to not tell me this for some reason... that and I told them they needed to teach others or just "go ahead an leave... maybe there is a church out there that can make you happy.(I know I am working on that being nicer thing!) 2. We are a consumer nation... we eat, eat, eat... we set up churches the same way... we emphasis entertainment and "learning" and replace true discipleship. We want 3 steps to a happy marriage because we are too lazy to actually work at it. We want "success principles" instead of walking as New Creations. We want our consumables. 3. I think this is a great question... in fact if you send me $20 I will send you my 7 easy steps to developing better fed Christians! No, really, I think the issue is that most think that all there is to Christianity is going to a building, sitting on their butts and listening to emotional music, listening to the pastor/teacher and take notes they never look at again! Instead we need to focus on getting out of the church building and interacting with non beleivers in ways that show we actually believe what we have been fed for all these years. I bet most will find that they cannot regurgitate last weeks sermon in a practical manner that is relevant! We need to rub shoulders with those God loves and do true evangelism of "walking beside them" (which is what evangelism literally means in the bible). We need to become task theologians... to find out what the true needs of the people are and not settle into the re-imaged Roman Empire of appeasing the lust of the eyes, the flesh and pride of life... meaning... live out our faith with our eye wide open and ask God to let us see what He sees... Blessings, iggy 3 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Church in N. America is mostly a social club. It's set up in a way that expects people to shop around and find the one that serves them the best (feed me, etc).
Church bill boards in my city prove this every day. 4 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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What ... only 4 comments and already I see a trend. Hmmmm ...
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June 12, 2007
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1. I don't hear this as often, though working in the neighbourhood I do, I hear more from people who are literally hungry (generally neighbourhood kids, which seems to support the idea of your post). However, it something I am all too familiar with.
# Why do you think many Christians think they're to be "fed", but take little or no responsibility to "feed" others? 2. I think there are at least three factors at work here: first, the genuine need for spiritual and missional formation; second, the use (and misuse) of Biblical language about "being fed"; and finally, equating "being fed" with learning ideas and principles, not really the Bread of Life, but certainly a reflection of our culture. # How might churches better develop Christians who desire to be fed to feed others? 3. This is a big one, but I think it starts with unlearning what spiritual formation is- what it means to be fed. While classroom style learning still has a place, it should not be the primary means by which people are "fed". I think we need to rediscover the Eucharist, the most important way in which we are fed, entering together as the Body of Christ. Finally, I would say Christians need to spend time with those who truly need to be fed- the poor and starving. It is hard to keep things all about you in the face of injustice. Peace, Jamie 6 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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# Do you hear these kinds of statements in your cultural context?
No, but I have heard them in the past. Sometimes the complaint is justifiable. Sometimes it is just a lament from someone who thinks that there is some super-secret Christian "teaching" that will make everything turbo-charge their Christian life. (Never mind that if they decided to cultivate the fruit of the spirit, they'd get along much better.) # Why do you think many Christians think they're to be "fed", but take little or no responsibility to "feed" others? People have touched on various reasons here: Many might think that they aren't able to feed others. Sometimes folks are just selfish. Others have a skewed idea of what "feeding" means. # How might churches better develop Christians who desire to be fed to feed others? They could start by organizing the church around a "co-feeding" model where individuals or segments of the community are not burdened with feeding. The church could also make the point that there are plenty of resources available so that Christians can "self-feed". Or maybe churches need to help people figure out what they mean by "being fed". Sheesh. 7 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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1) Hm. Yeah I used to hear that all the time - now I only hear it from people who worry about my de-churched status. "Well, then how are you being fed?" they ask.
2) I'm totally with Sonja - we've been taught that only the most educated are capable of feeding us. If we try to feed our uneducated selves, we might fall in to heresy. 3) I don't know. But I like the discussion. 8 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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# Do you hear these kinds of statements in your cultural context?
Not so much. I don't hang around with many churchy folks anymore, and most of the people in my neighborhood hate church. But when I wander back into the Christian mainstream, I hear that sort of sentiment all the time. # Why do you think many Christians think they're to be "fed", but take little or no responsibility to "feed" others? Consumerism. We are born and bred consumers. But the problem has existed for longer than modern consumer capitalism has been around, to be sure. I think it also has something to do with the profound education-mindedness that churches have. Take a look at the list of programs and events a church has and odds are almost all of them are educational. If all a church does is educate people, then only a few will be contributors, while the majority are content consumers. Is it any wonder, then, that folks will evaluate their churches based upon how satisfying the content is? # How might churches better develop Christians who desire to be fed to feed others? We're entirely too interested in amassing a crowd. Jesus constantly said stuff to weed out the spiritual moochers. Instead of thinking our job description is to "reach as many people as possible" perhaps our job should be to "see people shaped into the image of Christ." This smacks conventional evangelical wisdom in the face, but it seems to fit Jesus' M.O. We should rethink the context in which folks will come into contact with the Gospel and demonstrate Christ clearly, without slowly spoon feeding folks a bit at a time. Let's leave it up to the Spirit to woo people with subtleties. 9 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Mark,
"Spiritual Moochers" Ooooh! I like that! Wow. You actually gave something that has bothered/irritated me for many years a name! Thanks! L. 10 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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1. i hear it on the occassion. frankly, those i've partnered with in our local church leadership have stopped listening to those comments, and began listening to the deeper statements being made. when the sheep Jesus Christ has entrusted us to feed refuse to learn to feed themselves, i think kicking them in the ass is appropriate.
2. the answer to this question has filled many books recently. but in short and oversimplified terms...euro-western christianity and the spirit of greed. (capitalism when it's twisted) 3. too many suggestions to respond here. but i think a simple begging and repentance would be in order. brad ps. great post john...great. 11 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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F,
"A call to cook your own meals" -- That is great! I can definitely see that. Though I'll also take the reciprocal nature of being fed and feeding with it where necessary. Surprised that some people see feeding yourself as haughty, though I suppose I should be past anything surprising me in this regard. 12 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Sonja,
Great thoughts and made me laugh at the same time! "wonder twin powers activate" -- couldn't resist. 13 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Iggy,
Thanks for the belated birthday! This definitely one of my pet peeves too, and I had to edit out certain parts about poo and diapers before posting this, so I was strangely comforted by your mention of diaper changing  I think the number one reason why we are hearing this "feed me, change me" mantra is our adaptation of cultural consumerism into the church--not to say that aren't other factors. So I think our thinking is fairly similar on this topic. 14 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Agent B,
Agreed, and I think as Sonja mentioned above, leaders and those wanting to be fed are complicit together in this situation. 15 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Sonja,
You wrote, "What ... only 4 comments and already I see a trend." Seems that you've been to the George Barna school of statistical trends 16 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Jamie A-R,
Very helpful answers. I appreciate your mention of the genuine need for spiritual and missional formation. I suppose genuine needs have become corrupted here. I'm also reminded of Jay Bakker mentioning Jesus' statement about his food being to *do* the will of his Father. "Food" has become passive spiritual gluttony instead of becoming and living in the steps of Jesus. 17 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Lainie,
Your "sheesh" made me laugh, and I need some laughter today, so thanks Any further thoughts on "co-feeding"? Thanks for your helpful input. 18 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Erin,
I'm trying to get weened off you not being Lily  I'm with you and Sonja, I think there's a problem of leaders wanting to be the educated experts and too many who aren't leaders wanting to sit back and be "fed". 19 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Mark V-S,
Great thoughts as always. But I especially connected with your thoughts about the educational focus of most churches, and the ramifications of this in relation to consumerism. 20 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Brad,
Thanks for the encouragement. I hear you on 1, but the shame nowadays is there is so little mutual accountability. People just move on to places they perceive will "feed" them; and then move on to the next place, and the next...... 21 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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"Co-Feeding"
I have a serious problem with the notion that the "professional" clergy have a responsibility to feed/teach/preach (and do all the other work of pastoral care, church governing/administration, leading worship, etc) while the congregation gets fed. I believe that we are to teach, exhort, edify, etc each other. More people would get "fed" at church if the whole body was called upon to learn and teach and minister to each other. As an aside, I would also like to point out that I think the desire to be "fed" frequently has little to do with a sincere desire for spriritual or Biblical instruction, and everything to do with pride. I once dated a real bozo who, while we were attending services at Willow Creek, whispered "this is such a milky message" to me. Apparently the sermon that night was not satisfying to his highly enlightened self. The truth was, of course, that he was far more interested in spiritual elitism rather than actually developing fruit as a result of submitting himself to instruction. 22 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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And another thing. . .
Is the average churchgoer (who seems to want to make the church their dietician/personal chef) really in a position to determine whether or not s/he is being properly "fed"? Think about it. If they are going to use the "feeding" metaphor, then I think it is fair to ask how they determine what their diet is ought to be. Most people, given a choice, tend to choose to feed on food that just isn't good for them. If church teaching isn't "feeding" them, why assume that the teaching has no substance? Maybe their digestive systems (i.e. brains/hearts) aren't yet mature enough for the teaching. Maybe they are spiritual bulimics who are hungry for what tastes good but then regurgitate it before it gives them nourishment. Maybe they are picky eaters who are turning up their noses all foods except their personal favorites. In short: If the churchgoer is going to make the church their dietician/personal chef, why does the churchgoer complain about what s/he is fed? You can't have your cake and eat it too (so to speak). Double sheesh. 23 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Wow, what a topic! Much of what I would say has been said already, but it certainly is my experience that there is a large group (the majority, sadly) in most congregations who simply cannot ever seem to progress beyonds the spoon-fed stage.
I'd say that they fall into two broad categories. There are those who have never got onto the solid food at all, even after many years of 'attending'. It's like they think that they have done all they need to do just by turning up! In fact, I think the longer they are there, the more impervious they are to the Gospel. Then there are those who have been around for a while, have grown to a certain point and may well be in a place of responsibility or leadership. These folks will, paradoxically, look down their noses at the first group as being 'spiritual babies' - and yet, all too often, are simply more 'meat consuming' versions of the same trend i.e they want to consume just the same, but on a deeper and more 'spiritual' level. In a way, the second group are most frustrating - because they really ought to know better, and be able to be both feeding themselves, and being enabled and empowered to feed others. I'm sure a lot of it is to do with expectations. In our tradition, the spectre of a professional clerical leadership has got a lot to answer for here - people not only want, but expect, the 'paid guy' to deliver the goods from the pulpit. 24 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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1. I used to so I changed cultural context.
2. Attractionalism 3. Get missional Wow! How was that for brevity? And from me! 25 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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"Only certain people (with degrees and special wonder twin powers) are capable feeding them. "
awesome. wonder twin powers. man that is great. 26 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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BTW, it is technically called by two names (other than wonder twin powers)... clericalism and simony. the one is where the pastor or priest is elevated above the people, the other is where one buys his/her way into the ministry. no one buys their seat in ministry you say? when was the last time you checked the price for seminary degrees which are required by 99% of churches to marry/bury and give the sacriments.
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June 12, 2007
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Lainie,
I also have a great problem with pastor's doing all of the "feeding". But are you advocating that anyone can do anything? 28 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Lainie,
Good point on your double sheesh! But I get the feeling people don't think through this anymore than a baby thinks through hunger pains. 29 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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John wrote: "Seems that you've been to the George Barna school of statistical trends"
LOL ... naw ... I grew up in the Ben Naylor school of statistics (i.e. my dad is a statistician ... seeing patterns, trends, and behaviors was part of the meat and potatoes at our house). OTOH ... I do think that the problem is systemic and part of a dance that involves both congregation and leaders equally. 30 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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John:
No, I don't advocate that anyone can do anything. But neither do I believe that the only way to get "fed" is through preaching or formal teaching. Nor do I believe that preaching and formal teaching are the be-all-and-end-all of a local church's purpose/mission. I believe that more than just a few professionals within a church can preach and teach formally. I believe the same about informal teaching, exhortation, counseling, support, rebuking in love, etc. Not everyone is going to necessarily be able to do all of these things well, but I'd say that that everyone in a church is capable of doing some of it. This gets back to my annoyance over people thinking that they can be "fed" some special teaching that is going to turbo-charge their spirituality. (Ironically, this reminds me of folks who keep looking for a magic bullet diet pill.) They judge their "feeding" subjectively, only responding to what they want to respond to. They fail to acknowledge that there is more to being a Christian than listening to a sermon or teaching. They are surrounded by a banquet but are trying to subsist on the garnishes. Triple sheesh! 31 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Mike - thanks for bringing up Simony. I haven't heard/read that word in years. You are quite right, an aweful lot of people "buy" their way into ministry and ecclesiological influence in all sorts of ways. We are totally kidding ourselves if we think church is simply a meritocracy or giftocracy.
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June 12, 2007
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Mike and f:
Quite so. . .while some denominations offer an alternative track to ministry ordination or licensure for non-seminary grads, those ordained or licensed under such programs are often relegated to a second-class status within the denomination. In fairness, though, many churches and denominations don't require a seminary education to be ordained, but they might have their own barriers to those who are called to leadership/service. 33 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Paul W,
I'm tracking with you in regard to the two different groups. But I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean when you say the majority of Christians cannot feed themselves. Do you mean they literally cannot, or choose not to? Or perhaps a third option that you think they chose not to for so long that they've virtually lost the ability even if they chose to change? 34 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Webb,
You've gone from being a man of many words to being as concise as a, well, concise 35 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Mike,
I dug the wonder twin powers comment too. Very true about the price of seminary education, but I think especially in America, Canada, and I think England. In Australia I bet my five years cost less than one year would have cost me in America. 36 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Sonja,
That's interesting to hear about your dad and stats. I wasn't too far off  Still trying to activate those dang wonder twin powers :- True about leaders and whole of congregation. 37 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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Lainie,
Thanks for further clarifying. That's where I'm at. "Triple sheesh" -- you are a dangerous person. Risky. Very risky. Very few people have spoke a triple sheesh and lived to tell the tale 38 report abuse
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June 12, 2007
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It seems I'm a little late to the conversation.
A key part of this is the traditional church set up, especially the model run in North America, but also to a certain extent England. Continental Europe is different, and the Christian church a different character. I've not really heard the first 2, and I've only occasionally heard the 3rd. I found this topic particularly interesting because I've been reflecting on our church recently, and how it feels like we've been on a journey, gone through several years of difficult refinement, yet by certain standards our Sunday meetings are not impressive. Our church life is in our midweek groups and meetings. People share their thoughts, experiences, prophetic words, insights and worship. Various people have responsibility to guide these gatherings, to make sure they happen in a useful manner, that things don't get out of hand or run off into the heavily negative. But essentially it's pretty much body ministry, even though there will be semi-formal teaching (usually designed to produce discussion). If someone sits silently, week after week, there's a sign that something is wrong, although it's not usually in the area of being fed. And people are expected to serve. There's no compulsion to do so, but to stand back and spectate week after week would make any decent person feel uncomfortable. There's service to the church, service to the community, various kinds of things available. Certainly enough stuff that no-one could deny they were offered the opportunity to grow in service. Some groups work well and some less well. There are certain people that will turn every conversation round to focus on themselves, their troubles, pains, problems, wishes... whatever. Having 2 such characters in a small group makes it 'interesting'. Sometimes leading such a group makes you feel a little like a referee. But even in this situation the majority of people can still contribute, offer direction and encouragement. And sometimes one needs to have a stern word. We're far from being *perfect* as a church, but I see this as a model of church that reflects being the body of Jesus together, each one having a role and opportunity to grow through their own connection with Jesus and each other. 39 report abuse
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June 13, 2007
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WOW, missed this somehow ... very busy, and I think Lyn must have clicked it as read on my feeder.
The slant on this that I've been used to is a comment on the sung worship: "I got so much out of the worship today." "I didn't like the songs today etc." "It's so anointed when ..." I comes from the same stock as the feed comments. Consider this metaphor. The addiction ministry I visit each week insists on abstinence as the path to recovery. This forces the issues to the surface. That is an interesting one, because they work with people with various eating disorders too, who obviously don't abstain from food, only from 'using' food improperly. It seem to me that the consumers you refer to above have a for of feeding disorder - yet are blissfully unaware of it - probably they believe they owe it to God to make sure they receive good and correct teaching. This is an overflow from the Hellenistic Academy 'information' style discipleship the church has adopted, separated from life practice. Therefore, to be a good disciple (follower of Jesus) I need to make sure I'm getting good supply of good information. Back to the feeding disorder. If the supplier and consumer are codependent then maybe the supplier has to initiate to initiate the recovery? What do you think? What might this look like? 40 report abuse
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June 13, 2007
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Toni,
I like the sound of your midweek groups and meetings as far as interaction, but would love to see churches spending more time in the community during the week as well. You wrote, "There's no compulsion to do so, but to stand back and spectate week after week would make any decent person feel uncomfortable." This is a telling observation. The sad thing is that a lot of people who are otherwise decent have been lulled into apathy--not saying they aren't complicit in this--by particular models of church. 41 report abuse
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June 13, 2007
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Jon,
Lots of helpful thoughts. I hadn't thought about the connections between feeding and worship before. Very perceptive. The more I'm learning by observing a a recovery ministry here, the more I think the church has much to learn from them. So it is good to hear your thoughts in relation to this. I think that if both parties are co-dependent that it takes them getting out of denial about this, though I'm not sure if it matters whether it is the "supplier" or "consumer" that initiates change. It's normally the consumer who has control over what is supplied in everyday life, I wonder if we haven't given enough credit to the "consumer" in regard to church? 42 report abuse
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June 13, 2007
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This has bothered me for a long time. I use to hear the saying, There are the doers, and then there are those who sit back expecting while criticizing. Many people would come into a church to be spoon fed while a very small percentage was active in: teaching Sunday School, visiting the shut-ins, helping with the homeless or needy, prayer groups etc.
I heard the allegory of a healthy Christian to a river with life compared to a spoon-fed selfish Christian to the Dead Sea where nothing could survive. I don’t know if this is truly accurate, and it may seem harsh, but I believe healthy Christians are active, are supportive, reach out to others etc. In other words, healthy Christians are Missional even if they truly don’t understand the terminology of Missional. Am I too judgmental? I have witnessed new baby Christians becoming excitedly active. However, there may be some Christians who are acting like babies because they are afraid or confused. Do you think they just may need some teaching or encouragement? Do their leaders and friends lead some Christians astray? What is our responsibility? 43 report abuse
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June 13, 2007
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Kayak Angel 8,
It was good to catch up with you and everyone last night. This has bothered me for a long time too. I don't think Christians who are in this situation need more teaching, but more doing; not more learning, but more serving. 44 report abuse
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June 13, 2007
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"I ..... would love to see churches spending more time in the community during the week as well."
I'd left out the non-church stuff because it was kind of OT, but we've got mums'n'toddlers, over 60s, some youth work and stuff I don't have any detail on going on. We don't have a building, but we've helped finance and provide a large 'portakabin' structure to serve a particular community. 45 report abuse
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June 15, 2007
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Toni,
Sounds great. Don't know what you meant by "OT"? 46 report abuse
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June 16, 2007
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How about the corollary, "a church that meets my needs?"
47 report abuse
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June 18, 2007
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Diane,
These things certainly seem to be close associates. 48 report abuse
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June 18, 2007
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